Related article: CFA Board Update – Structural Ensemble: January 31 2008
Following the Board’s decision to provide firefighters with a choice of two new structural ensembles – Nomex 3D and PBI gold – the Volunteer Associations wrote to the Board on 28 January stating:
“The Associations support CFA issuing the Nomex ensemble in the lime green colour only. . . Rather than this being an interim measure, the Associations’ preferred position is the Nomex material should continue to be provided in lime green and not dyed to match the PBI Gold colour.”
The CFA Board considered this request at its February meeting, when it accepted the Associations' position and resolved to provide CFA firefighters with the Nomex 3D structural ensemble in one colour only – lime green.
All structural firefighters will now be offered a choice of Nomex 3D or PBI Gold outer shell, both with a Gore Airlocker moisture barrier. This decision is based on providing individuals with personal preference and the fact that both ensembles exceed the required safety standards.
In restating its previous direction to rollout the new ensembles to structural firefighters as soon as possible, the Board also considered that this new decision to issue Nomex 3D in lime green only would simplify the overall project and remove any unwanted delays in the manufacture and distribution of the new ensembles.
The Board also considered the advice from the Chief Officer that the evolution of new technologies for firefighting ensembles would most probably lead to new materials in different colours being trialled within the life of the current structural ensemble project.
CFA Board
27 February 2008
Nomex 3D outer shell with Gore Airlocker moisture barrier. Click on the image to download a larger version (70kb).
CFA Board Update – Colour of the Nomex 3D Structural Ensemble
27 comments:
Dear Fire Flyer,
Quote:
"In restating its previous direction to rollout the new ensembles to structural firefighters as soon as possible, the Board also considered that this new decision to issue Nomex 3D in lime green only would simplify the overall project and remove any unwanted delays in the manufacture and distribution of the new ensembles."
Now that all forseen delays have been avoided, when will both CFA staff and volunteers be issued with the structural PPC.
Like our MFB brothers, will CFA volunteers and staff be measured for our uniforms and will we be issued with flash hoods?
awaiting your reply.
What if i don't want to be a lime green jelly bean fire fighter.Yuk color.Go the yellow.All the community has know volunteers in there yellow gear.What will they think of this ugly lime green.You can call it by any name its still lime green.
Who will be given it and when will they get it?
Hi there. Yes all eligible CFA firefighters will be individually measured by the manufacturer and issued with the appropriately sized ensemble. The measuring program is envisaged to commence during March, with finished ensembles to be rolled out on a brigade-by-brigade basis planned to commence in May 2008. Ensemble production is still reliant on obtaining stakeholder sign-off regarding the final design. The issue of flash hoods is largely an operational decision which we'll keep you informed about. Cheers, Fire Flyer.
"What if i don't want to be a lime green jelly bean fire fighter.Yuk color.Go the yellow.All the community has know volunteers in there yellow gear.What will they think of this ugly lime green.You can call it by any name its still lime green."
Lets not forget that this is not a fashion contest!!
Its our safety and if it means I would have to look like a lime, brown, yellow, green or even a pink jelly bean then so be it. As long as I know I have a higher level of equipment to help protect me if something was to go wrong.
Hi again, just thought it might also be worth clarifying that CFA’s wildfire protective clothing will not change. The distinctive yellow overalls of wildfire firefighters will remain the same. Cheers, Fire Flyer.
Are CFA going to release the data on the trials for there members to read. I hope they do so all can make a decision based on seeing all of the data. Will they also release the incidents that occurred whilst wearing the gear during the trials.
Do staff and volunteers get to choose which PPE they want.
Can staff choose nomex or do they have to have PBI Gold and do Volunteers get Nomex and not PBI Gold?
What technical information will be provided to brigades before members are required to make a decision between Nomex 3D and PBI Gold, and will it be provided in plenty of time see that the measuring program is envisaged to commence during March.
Having worn the trial structural uniform I found them excellent. The Lime Green stands out well at night and is more visible which is a definate safety issue.
The gear we are currently using for structural firefighting is a black tunic and yellow turnout trousers. I know which one I would rather have - "LIME GREEN.
Anonymous said: "Do staff and volunteers get to choose which PPE they want.
Can staff choose nomex or do they have to have PBI Gold and do Volunteers get Nomex and not PBI Gold?"
Hi Anonymous. The Board has made it very clear that “CFA structural firefighters will be provided with a choice of two ensembles.” Therefore no restriction exists between career firefighters and volunteers. Both Nomex 3D Lime Green and PBI Gold ensembles are available to all eligible members regardless of their career or volunteer status. The Board's strong view is that individuals should be given a choice depending on their circumstances and preference. Cheers, Fire Flyer.
Anonymous said: "What technical information will be provided to brigades before members are required to make a decision between Nomex 3D and PBI Gold, and will it be provided in plenty of time see that the measuring program is envisaged to commence during March."
Hi Anonymous. Both Nomex 3D and PBI Gold outer shell fabrics exceed the performance requirements of AS 4967:2006 Protective clothing for firefighters – Requirements and test methods for protective clothing used for structural firefighting.
The objective scientific evaluations conducted by Wollongong Human Performance Laboratories concluded there were only very slight differences between ensembles regarding the interaction of metabolically induced heat. Therefore, there are no readily discernable differences between fabric performance upon which a brigade member could be expected to make a personal choice decision, however the look and feel of both fabrics do differ and may provide some basis upon which a choice could be made.
Ensembles made from both outer shell materials will be available during the measuring program to assist individuals to make their choice. Cheers, Fire Flyer.
Anonymous said: "Are CFA going to release the data on the trials for there members to read. I hope they do so all can make a decision based on seeing all of the data. Will they also release the incidents that occurred whilst wearing the gear during the trials."
Hi Anonymous. At this stage it is not envisaged that there will be a CFA-wide release of trial data because to do so may breach certain probity requirements. The important factor is that all operational performance issues or concerns have been absolutely satisfied through the exhaustive subjective and objective testing and trialling processes undertaken by CFA and independent test houses both nationally and internationally.
An ensemble's compliance with AS 4967:2006 Protective clothing for firefighters – Requirements and test methods for protective clothing used for structural firefighting removes any doubt about the level of protection afforded to the wearer. Trial ensembles in various fabric combinations have been in operational use within CFA for over two years now without failure. Cheers, Fire Flyer.
My brigade has decided that we will all select the same type of turnout gear however which gear that is has not been decided.
Will we have a chance to see both types of structural gear and decide as a brigade which type of turnout gear we want or will we be forced to make a decision on the spot, when our brigade is measured?
When the nomex was to be dyed to match the PBI gold this wasn't a problem but we don't want members of our brigade to be dressed in two different coloured turnout gear.
Without access to full technical data it is impossible to make an informed decision!
To not supply information on test results is to send a blind man into battle. Career Staff and Volunteers need to make an informed decision on the gear which will protect them.
Its not good enough to say, 'They both passed the Australian Standard' as we all know there are differences is both sets of ensembles, differences that CFA members need to see and understand.
To say information will be provided to the CFA members when they are being sized up is just not good enough. The CFA has the information and so should we. The CFA board cannot expect members to make on the spot decisions when the time comes... Can they?
New structural ensemble? i don't think so.. it's only a coat and pants. Why didn't we test and try out new helmets, flash hoods, boots & gloves? This would complete an ensemble.
In previous answer you have said it is an individual choice as to which ensemble we can choose. If my brigade decides to go with a different option am I still able to pick the other type despite the brigades decision?
Hi Anonymous. The Board's decision is very clear in this regard stating that “CFA structural firefighters will be provided with a choice of two ensembles”. Therefore, no restriction can be imposed that removes an individual's ability to exercise their choice. The Board's strong view is that individuals be given a choice depending on their circumstances and preference. Cheers, Fire Flyer.
So why are we waiting? I haven't heard of anyone getting measured up yet. If we get the choice in both sets then why am i risking myself everytime i turn out with substandard PPC?
Hi Anonymous. The sizing program is currently planned to commence with the approved 100 priority brigades around the last week of April. The program's commencement is very much dependant upon the completed manufacture of block sizing ensembles in a mix of PBI and Nomex fabrics and full agreement as to the final CFA design.
Finished final design ensembles will be made available throughout the sizing program to assist wearers to make their choice of outer shell fabric and to familiarise themselves with design features. Cheers, Fire Flyer.
Perhaps the board need to go do some basic fire fighting. As an OIC the worst thing you can do is not make a plan. The 2nd worst thing is to make 2 plans. This really does make the board look weak and a lack of leadership. My brigade is in the 100 priority brigades to receive the new gear. We are also a brigade who's on the boarder with the MFB and a CFA staff brigade. We as a brigade have decided on 1 set of gear the same as the MFB and CFA staff, assuming staff will choose the same as MFB. We are now pushing at a group level for just 1 set of gear.
I erg other brigades to do the same. This new gear should be a chance for uniting the fire authorities, brigades and staff and vols. Not to divide.
So when is this gear coming?
I guess it is typical CFA fashion to deliver late.
It's already the start of May and you "Fire Flyer" said measuring was commencing in the last week of April.
To those receiving the gear, be mind full its not just a turn out coat but also new pants. Unlike the current gear where we take 1 set of pants to all jobs, we now have to choose. With that we also need another set of boots. For some, their set up of gear, doesn't effect them. Yet for those who that the pants rolled down around the boots, it may be worth getting in early and ordering another set of boots before everyone else realize that they need another set.
Hi Anonymous. The previously stated timelines regarding the measuring program commencing in March, with finished ensembles to be rolled out on a brigade by brigade basis planned to commence in May 2008, were fully reliant on obtaining stakeholder sign off regarding the final design.
To date, official acceptance of the final design has not been obtained from all stakeholders and therefore the distribution program has not yet commenced. It is anticipated that the field measuring program will begin during May. Cheers, Fire Flyer.
I am in agreement with several posters above who are adamant that members must be provided with the appropriate test result data to enable them to properly make a decision on which fabric to go with.
Without the necessary information all we are really doing is picking a colour. "Lime or tan" does not satisfy and safety/wearability/durability questions that members are going to have.
Andrew, lets face it... the CFA are not going to provide us with the details and once again we are going to need to do our own research to locate answers, this in my opinion is not on, the research and testing has been conducted and completed by the CFA!
The PPC is an important piece of equipment, equipment which will bring me home to my family.
Since my last post a month ago there has not been any more information forthcoming from CFA. We were fortunate enough to have a demo/discussion session with our Ops Manager who managed to get hold of samples of each ensemble. He knew no more than we did about the testing results, aside from overall placings.
As far as I have been able to establish (and I'd welcome any corrections or further details) the only difference between the two options is the outer layer - PBI (which I learned is PBI Matrix) or Nomex (CFA says Nomex 3D). Despite lots of googling the only references I can find for Nomex 3D are in the CFA releases. If anyone knows what the actual Nomex version is that would really help my investigation / evaluation... that is if the CFA is still not going to release the details to its members so they can actually make a truly informed decision on what may affect their personal safety.
Who are the stakeholders that havent signed off on it yet and why??? whats thier problem and who's pushing them along
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